Recently I received a comment on social media that I would consider hate speech. In my first #BeyondClinicalWalls Podcast, I discuss with @Dr.Tina the historical tactic of dehumanizing black people and how we have been conditioned to measure our responses to avoid further perpetuating stereotypes. For more insight check it out!
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Hello, everyone. I am Dr. BCW, Welcome to Beyond Clinical Walls, a video and podcast series that highlights health care, health inequities and diversity in conversation, which is needed in all areas. So today I have a special gas, Dr. Tina Opie, who I have to say not only is become a colleague, but truly a friend, a confidant. And I am grateful just to have her with me today, to share all of her knowledge as well as really highlight what she does every day.
But how she helped me in the world of advocacy when I faced a racial practice that happened against me. So I'm really grateful to have her. Dr. Tina go. How to Take the Floor.
Thank you so much, Dr. Bayo And I will tell you, I feel the same way about you. And I remember when we met. I mean, what was that? May in Reno. We met at ten Ice Arena, and I remember we saw each other. It was you, Christina and I. Three black women. And we were drawn to each other like magnets.
And we were together pretty much for the rest of the time that we were there and confiding in each other, supporting each other. We had a meal together, and I even got to remember, I was like, I'm taking a nap. And I said, I mean, I was butt naked under the covers across my. I was like, I'm drinking my water and I'm sleep.
But I got up and got dressed and went downstairs and we had a drink together and we were talking. And then we parted ways. But we've kept in touch. And it's just it's a very special relationship that we have because, I mean, we've developed a sisterhood in a short period of time, I would say, because we've gone where I think some people are afraid to share information.
I mean, we talk about money. We talk about family relationships. We talk about parents. We talk about the wives. I mean, we talk about what happens. The money is tight and you're an entrepreneur. So we have really been vulnerable with each other. And I think as a result, we have this beautiful relationship that we've established. I'm very grateful for you.
So thank you for having me.
Oh, thank you for being here. And I just want to second the fact that, you know, you can have lots of relationships, friendships with people, but the core of that friendship is about connectivity and being able to really share the true things that are happening in your life. Not all of the things that we see on social media, but who is there for you when you are having all of those issues that we face every day in life?
And it's amazing to be able to have someone that takes you offline.
Every aspect and is there to promote, help, guide and tell the truth. I think that is a huge part of our friendship and I'm grateful for it. So thank you.
Yes. So I would love to have everyone get to know your background and all the things that you do because you do so many different things. And then we'll kind of we'll dive into the topic at hand, which is racism and social media.
Yeah. So in terms of my background, so I'm a military brat from the United States and I am and I do feel I come from a background where to have to pay homage to my parents because they have a lot to do with why I'm sitting where I'm sitting. So Robert's narrative and my father was in the Navy.
My mother was in the Marines. And yes, back in the sixties, my mother was in the Marines. Back then, when women tended to get married, many of them left the military, which my mom did. And I was born in California, lived in the Philippines, back to California, and then grew up primarily in Virginia. And that explains a lot.
I was pretty consistently in new environments, so almost always on the periphery of social groups trying to figure out how to make my way in, which sort of explains how my dissertation was on peripheral City. I study marginalization. I had to learn how to use humor in comedy as a way to learn how to influence people, not get beaten up, you know, gain favor with people.
I am married 23 years and July. We had one. Yeah, 23 years. We have a son who will be 21 in November, a daughter who will be 18 in August. She is heading off to play Division one lacrosse at Howard. Our son is playing lacrosse at a community college, and he will see what he's going to be doing is probably the past of my husband, Dr. Frederick Douglass Opie, who is also he's a full professor at Boston College who teaches history.
So we live in the suburbs of Boston. What else? I study leadership, culture, diversity, equity and inclusion. This is the book that I just published with my coauthor, Dr. Beth Levinson of Sisterhood. And basically, I try to help the world be a better place. I try to help organizations be less racist and sexist and people be less racist and sexist.
You know, to liberate themselves because many people talk about that. The goal is liberation. It's equity, it's economic freedom. Those are the goals. And then there are different pathways to get there. In terms of personal things. I love fashion, jewelry, makeup. I love to sing, I love movies, and my parents live in Florida. I'm not crazy about the state of Florida.
You must go. I'm sorry, but some of the crazy stuff that's happening in politics, I'm like, the work that I do has been under siege and yet I persist.
So that's a little know. I know there is a lot there, and I'm just glad to have you share even a small portion of all the different things that you do and so many different ways. And so today we're going to talk about a recent event that happened to me. And so to set the stage for some of you who may not know, I have a series, as we all know, called Beyond Clinical Walls with podcasts and videos, and I share free health information and I talk about a wide array of different topics in hopes of helping people really be able to arm themselves with information about their health or their family or friend, anyone.
And so I received a comment on one of my videos and it was when did we start giving? And it was an emoji of an ape scrubs. And in social media, of course, we often get all different types of comments, some things that are nonsensical, some things you're like, what exactly is happening here? But with that, it was very clear to me what was the intent.
And it's important that I mention that because this was a whole different level. And so after I saw that comments and I processed how that made me feel, I thought, okay, what can I do? Because I'm solution oriented? What can I do to put this forward and fight back in a way that is considered the right way to do it?
And so I put in a submission and stated, This is what happened. I qualified it as hate speech and about a week later I received a response from Instagram that stated that this did not meet their qualifications or hate speech. And so when that happened, I really again had to take a step back and think about what I just read.
Just I want to interrupt because I just want to make sure that everyone is hearing what you just said. Dr. Bayo You got you were kind enough out of the generosity of your heart to share a free resource medical resource. Someone said, Since when did we give and they put a gorilla or eight emoji. Scruggs You then report that to Instagram because this happened on Instagram's platform and you report it as hate speech, and Instagram pretty quickly responds back to you and says, This does not violate our community guidelines for hate speech.
Is that correct?
That is correct.
Okay. So I just want to make sure that everyone is hearing what Dr. Bayo just said, because we're seeing it. Anyway. I'm getting ahead of the story now. That's pretty crazy.
It's really hard to digest. And so now I'm going to go with after that happens again. I tried to take a level of curiosity. Let's just call that when I saw the response sent in another appeal and I thought, I am going to share this with the world, but I'm going to and you saw this post and I would love your thoughts on it, Dr. Tina, because you know where I was coming from.
And I wrote a very open post and I just wanted to know what others felt because I didn't feel like it was important to write it in a way that was aggressive, in a way that I know that I could actually get banned. And we'll talk about that later, why I had to write it the way I did, because I wanted to make sure that it was out there.
And so a lot of people don't know. That's why I crafted it the way I did. And that leads into a couple of other things as well, and we'll get to that with the comments when people were asking me to show the name. So moving forward, I wrote it in a way that hopefully I wouldn't be under suspended or or called as harassment against the person who actually wrote that comment.
And so when I did that, I have to say my friends, my confidant, my sister, Dr. Tina, jumped in immediately when she saw the posts. And I would love to hear your thoughts when you were when you saw it. When you saw my post.
Well, I was immediately. What do you mean? How can I help? So I had multiple, multiple reaction because I'm outraged and then I'm jumping into action. And I. I immediately knew why. Dr. Bayo crafted the email or the post the way that she had posted it. Because this is the thing that is so frustrating. I say the way that racism works is that as a black woman or as as a as a black person, but as a black woman in particular, in a professional field, you are expected to drink the poison of racism, smile when it's going down, and then still educate people while singing.
You on the inside. Yes. And if you dare demonstrate any anger, if you if you if you have any kind of demonstrated or expressed outrage, you are often penalized much more so than the perpetrator or the aggressor. And so we have been conditioned and we know that we have to contain ourselves and behave in a manner that is far more elegant than anyone should ever have to.
It's almost it's inhumane. We are expected to contain any human reaction. So what I was feeling like, I'm like, well, I can act a fool. Because, however, I hope perhaps if I read what the media let me see what how I can help. And then I also wanted to make sure that my sister had the behind the scenes support that she needed because people so So what also happens is, is people on the thread were saying things like well, uses say the devil revealed the name of the person, but they're not thinking through.
If Bayo reveals the name of the person, she could be banned because then the the Instagram could say this She was targeting this person. She could be criticized for bullying this person. So do you see the way that that's working? So despite the fact that she is the one, we're going to have to break down the whole history behind how a black people eats and gorillas and monkeys, that is a way of embracing our humanity.
It's a historical tactic. It is a way that you begin to dehumanize black people. And there are other ways that other people groups have been dehumanized and it will get into that. But there is a historical context that's associated and connected with this and this person. You utilize that and knows this. And so it's a familiar trope and stereotype that they use.
We all know this. It's it's a dog whistle that this person is using. And yet even we all know this everyone Dr. Bayo knows this. She cannot go cry. She can scream. What she has to do is contain all of that which is harmful to her well-being. And she has to craft and edit and refine and post to express her displeasure that Instagram said that this thing did not violate its community guidelines for hate speech.
So I reached out to Dr. Bayo and I immediately go into research mode What are your community guidelines? And lo and behold, I see I went through and this is another issue with Instagram and which is owned by Facebook. They are they're all part of one organizing matter. They're all owned by the same organization. But when I went to I don't know if was Facebook or Instagram, Bayo, you got to keep me on Instagram.
Oh, well, it was. You found the policy.
I think it was on Facebook.
Yeah, but but listen, it says verbatim that you cannot it is considered hate speech to reference specific racial groups or ethnic groups and compare them to animals. And they explicitly call out black or African sometimes monkeys, apes or gorillas. And so I'm sitting here saying, I then report to Instagram, and Instagram tells me that it doesn't violate community guidelines.
And I'm sitting here saying, this is your own community guideline. So then I report it again. And finally they say, okay, thank you. This violates our community standards. But guess what? I'm looking through my inbox in preparation for this conversation, trying to find the report. I can't find that report. There's no I can't. So so part of that, there's this sister issue.
So the conversation that you and I have just had, I hope you can see it goes to the individual, this individual who engaged in this racist behavior targeted at Dr. Bayo So that's individual to interpersonal. And then she has these individual reactions to that interacts with this institution. So that's systemic. And then we as individuals are reacting to it, but we're now interacting with the systemic issue.
So there's this there's different levels of analysis that were going back and forth between at the end of the day, we see that there are systemic issues when it comes to racism, sexism and technology and these platforms. And I don't feel safe on these, but I mean, I use these platforms. We can get into my experience on Facebook.
But, you know, I don't know. Do they do they end up deleting the original comment at I what happens?
I couldn't so it was removed and I need to actually go back and see if it has remained. Finally it was removed after you myself, all everybody was sending in appeals, so they finally did remove it. But I screenshotted every single part so I could have so I can memorialize their response to my submission. And so to show that they did, they denied it and said it didn't qualify as hate speech.
And I'm going to go back to something that you mentioned. Dr.. I think it was important. We've all heard the analogy of the backpack that as black women or any intersectionality piece that you wear and how you are adding those books or, you know, rocks to your everyday life. And when I had to craft that message, that was an extra tax.
That was an extra time that I had to wait to write it in a way that I wasn't going to be considered as the harasser, that the person that was bullying somebody else. And that's something you have to look at because when people said, well, it shouldn't matter, just show it. Don't worry about your social media. Well, I'm going to flip that.
The reason I care is because what I'm doing is something that I love. I'm providing free health information in ways that anyone can consume, that they can understand what's happening in their health. And so that's why I do it. And so to cut that off into something, it's that would not help anyone. And now through that conversation, just trying to explain in the comments, that is why I did what I did.
And so I think that piece is so important. And I want to jump in to Dr. Tina When you and I were talking about what you experienced on Facebook and especially at the height of George Floyd, all of the things that were happening, because I think this is another piece that needs to be elevated and it helps also shape the whole discussion of interpersonal system racism.
Yeah, I mean, so I do local media working on this and I'm in the Boston area and I was on the PBS affiliate and a celebrity had made a comment as a white man. And what my comment, it was right after the MeToo movement and I was on given commentary about that. And what I said was, look, this movement is in its infancy and I get that this white man is trying to intervene and redirect and mansplain.
He may very well have valid points, but what I need you to do is write opinions in a journal weight six months to a year, let these women have their time and then join the conversation. But have some respect, defer, listen more than you talk. Well, that's infuriated people. And I started to get hate mail on Facebook. And you know, my name is Timothy.
I was on Facebook as I believe it happened at that time, and they could find me because that was my name on the local news channel. And the things that they were saying were, how dare you? Europe professor, and you're teaching. So my college campus is an open campus. And what that means is you don't have to go through the security.
And maybe I shouldn't be saying this, but listen, anyway, if you went off on campus right. And so I talk to and they have good security thinking this, but the security campus security I talked to the local security that mean the local police to let them know and answer the hate mail with them. And we have a protocol in place but the hate mail continued to come and then it started to get more violent.
And I changed my name. I changed my name to t o Deseo, which are my initials, but spelled that phonetically so that people could not find out they well, someone reported that because technically on Facebook you're supposed to have a legal name. Now, I don't know about you. There are so many people I just. But who don't do that.
That is incorrect. Probably someone reported that. So then Facebook, I've been reported Facebook contacted me and says, We don't believe that this is your legal name. You must show us proof of your birth certificate, proof of your legal name so you can show it's a birth certificate, some legal document like, you know, similar to when you get a driver's license.
So I had to decide. And at this point, I had a sister had a group of about 4000 people, and I was contemplating walking away. But similar to you, what I do was too important for me too. I didn't want to leave that community. But let me tell you something. There's a there's a website. There's a community called Mighty Networks.
So that was built on my own website. I was about to switch everything over, but I didn't want to do that. I did not want to do that. So I ended up on Facebook. I'm Rene Pittman. Rene is my middle name. Pittman is my last name, and I can't take it even if I wanted to choose. Back to Tina Opie, there's this huge rigamarole that I would have to go through to do that.
And this to me dovetails so nicely with your story, because I also reported the hate mail that I received where they're being violent with me, where they're talking about doing things sexually to me with all these other things that did not violate the community guidelines, but me changing my name to protect myself from that violence violated the community guidelines.
So in other words, I need to make myself available as a sitting duck to these aggressors so that they can find me and attack me. And when they do so, they won't be punished.
Correct. And, you know, and not really adds more reinforcement when we talk about structural racism and we talk about institutional racism. And I'm just going to break it down. So who are the people that are monitoring what qualifies as hate speech? What qualifies? I would speech and it doesn't even matter when you think about it. Who is it?
Who who's doing it? Because they're doing it wrong. Because what is happening to people every day is not acceptable. And then without wearing those extra layers, those that that backpack that's full. So no matter just when you wake up and you have already these extra layers that we're all carrying and then we've got extra environmental influences, influences and other things that are just adding more stressors into a world that we are supposed to absorb ourselves and fit in.
And there's a problem. And that's why I'm so glad that we're talking about this, that, you know, where is that pendulum? And right now we know it is not on the area of being equitable and accurate.
It's not. And, you know, I'm a researcher, so I did pull some stuff. I went to the Pew Research Center and that, you know, I can just cite some statistics. So this is from 2017. One in four black Americans have faced online harassment because of their race or ethnicity. And it's very interesting if you if people or your listeners are interested in the same as we can make sure that they can get access to to this.
But so the resources and what's interesting, you know, we have additional resources here, additional facts as well. But I think what I think we have we do have to say that's a bias. And I are not saying let's censor everyone because that's that's the that's the balance that we have to make. I am all for vigorous debate, open discourse.
I mean, the book that I wrote said Sisterhood is very much about doing that. I like when I like discourse. I like when people disagree with me, divergent opinion when I'm in the classroom, I'm an authority figure. As a professor, I encourage my students to disagree with me. So as an authority figure in the classroom, which we are and I know some professors have this perspective of overall equal listening.
You're an authority figure, right? You're the professor as a medical doctor, you're an authority figure. And as a parent, we are authority figures. And I don't yeah, I know that there is a movement and identify as a progressive. I think some progressives are trying to flatten out and act like we're all. You got that? I don't I don't know how healthy that is.
There are there are there is a hierarchy. Listen, I think is what you do with that status differential that that can matter that is most important. But I so for example, I may be the authority figure for what I like to do with my hands already is empower other people. There's this impulse to flatten the hierarchy, to get rid of all hierarchy.
And I don't know if that is necessary because I do think that we are authorities are a medical doctor. You have a lot more information and wisdom when it comes to health and medicine than the normal person that we should defer to. You. I have the I have an MBA, I have a Ph.D. I have studied business and organizational behavior.
I have more knowledge about certain things diversity, equity, inclusion, leadership, culture, strategy, management approach. Then the typical person. We are living in a society where we like to ask we all, all of our opinions are equal. I'm sorry. All of our humanity is equal.
Well, I will actually say something about that because I think that's huge when you talk about that hierarchy and and how we do need to have that in place, because there are certain things that you need to know. Who is that expert to your point, you're supposed to go to for that source of truth. And if we don't separate it, we're not able to be able to figure out where to go and have a direction and move forward.
And it made me think of as a physician, how many years of school of learning that I had to go through so I could help save lives. And that's a differentiator that I work really hard to achieve. And you need to know that you're going to someone who has studied and learned how to respond if you need them.
And so that part is so important. And I'm just going to add one more piece to it. In my TEDx talk. I talk about even when you have worked so hard to earn and have those credentials of what you love to do, I am often dismissed when I walk in and I see a patient and they can't really there's a way where they can't really feel like, Oh, you're actually a doctor.
Like the word is making me that I want to say, but that imagery doesn't exist. And you can see the struggle for them to actually say Doctor Cory Winchell. And so sometimes they just don't want to say it, or they'll decide to find that equal playing ground and call me by my first name without asking me. And so that's something we have to to your point, look at the things that we have achieved and that respect that goes with it.
So there is a level of authority so you know where to go. But when you take that away, when you strip and I'm going to give an example of this, I know there are some health care organizations, some places who feel like we shouldn't call doctors, doctors. We should just call everybody by their first name. Like, you have just stripped me of something that I have earned.
Now, it's okay to ask me and if I want to be called by my first name. Yes. But to assume and then put that where I can't say yes, I want to be called doctor credential, you know that that is an issue that maybe we can talk even at our next interview. And I just wanted to know.
So because I think I think the impetus to flatten these hierarchies comes from a health. It comes from a good place. I think it came from the fact that there were these hierarchies that were overlaid that were a natural means me, using our example of a doctor or me as a professor when I was younger. Even now, people didn't assume that I should be the professor because I'm black.
They did that. And so despite the fact that I had the knowledge, the extant racial hierarchy and gender hierarchy meant that you and I were not given the respect and deference that we had earned. So people have conflated that with the fact that actually hierarchy based on actual education. And so so that's how you end up in these situations where people are debating what a fact is, People are debating what a truth, what the truth is, and you have idiots saying I'm sorry, saying things like what's truly what, what are you talking about?
Another thing that my husband and I talk about is I think I know what I want to debate. What matter. This is my truth. No, wait a minute. Can we just say this is your experience? Yeah, but collectively there is. Isn't there a truth? There's a truth. Anyway, so the Pew Research Center, this is January 2021. It says, Just for context, roughly four in ten Americans have experienced online harassment and half of this group cites politics as the reason they think they were targeted.
What's interesting, though, is that when you get into when you start to look at that, that 40%, a lot of women are more likely to be more than twice as likely as men to view the incident as very or extremely upsetting. And then black Hispanic targets of online harassment are more likely than their white counterparts to say they've been harassed online because of their race or ethnicity.
And then among the 41% of us adults who've personally experienced online harassment, 75% say that their most recent experience occurred on social media, compared to 25% of discussion or forum, 24% on texting. I Just thought So. Social media is a huge outlet, and then the majority say that social media companies are only do what they're doing and only fair or poor job addressing online harassment.
So 32% said that they're doing a fair or poor job, 47% say that they're doing an only fair job. So if you add those two together, that 79% say that they're doing only fair or poor. So I think this is a rampant issue. And I do think it's interesting how the pew divides the kind of harassment, more severe forms of online harassment in less severe forms.
So it's important for us to think about that because there are some people who are actually getting thank God we're not getting stuck in or sustained harassment.
And what I think that's you know, we're talking about this. Where is the onus on social media platforms as we hear them saying we are advocates against fighting against harassment and racism and so forth? Well, I would like to know a couple of pieces. Where is this committee or group that you have? I'd also like to have optics into their playbook.
How do they monitor that? How do they decide who should be in that committee?
I think what's important here is for us, as we are trying to understand each other, to look at these numbers and figure out, because there's there are some big gaps, there are some big gaps in terms of what people think is driving the online harassment, what people think is driving it. And this is what I was talking about.
75% of people say their most recent online harassment experience occurred on social media. And yet a which is the 79% say social media companies are doing an only fair or a poor job addressing online harassment. I get the 79% by taking this 30 to 47% in terms of how well they are addressing the online harassment. So I think the reason why I took the time to pull those reports is going back to the conversation about facts and knowledge.
I'm not making this up. I am not saying I feel like social media is doing a bad job. Doctor, by you and I, we are both doctors. I'm not a medical doctor. I'm a research. I have a Ph.D. and not have an M.D. In both of our fields. Though we are trained in research and in research. Dr. Bayo I would say, is the gold standard, which she does has implications for people's lives.
What I do does not. So that's why I said that.
I think it doesn't actually. So I'm just going to say that, Dr. Tina, because what you bring forward has an impact on lives by your advocacy, by highlighting the data and really sharing the impact in a different way has a true impact in somebody's well thing.
But at the same time, you can help somebody not get that left foot amputated. I guess just to make it plain. Just to make a point. Yes. You know what I'm saying? I'm just saying that, yes, I do think the work. But both of us, the thing that is that both of us have in common is I am not going to create an intervention that is half because I'm not going to go to an organization that's a bio, is not going to recommend a medicine that has only been tested on one person based on their feeling, I am not going to create an intervention that has only been based on what I think should happen,
based on what this one person told me on the corner. That's just not going to happen. We must be better about how we present facts and we need to triangulate where we get those facts from anywhere. That's all we to have a conversation about. I taught a class and one of the sections was How do we know what we know?
Oh, I like that. That might be the next one, not the next blog. But I think one part when you are sharing the data and everything like that, it really makes me curious. I like to lean into that of we hear social media stating that they're actively fighting against racism and and so forth, but where where's that playbook?
I would like to see it, and I'd like to also know who is on that committee, who is making these decisions, even at a granular level, what is the third hate and hate? And let me go a little bit deeper. How did you decide that? What is your definition of what hate is? Because if you haven't even created that piece or had a shared definition of what that means, your work in preventing this isn't possible because the people that are putting it forward have no idea of what that is even supposed to be.
So that is call out that I'd like to make.
Yeah, it's transparency. It's transparency and clarity. And I mean, I don't think it's a coincidence that I can't find my report on my own. I don't think that's a coincidence. I should be able to click a link and easily find all of the supporting documentation that I submitted because that's the best submitted supporting documentation. I should be able to find the cause.
It's not easy for me to find. It is a challenge. Why is that correct? Why is that so? I think what what was clear to me was that it felt as though it was an ad hoc decision making process. And we have seen on certain platforms where particular divisions or departments can be gutted by the idiosyncratic decisions of one person.
This person decides this is not something that I think is important. We're going to cut the budget. I mean, that person I went to, Ted, I went in that person was on stage talking about purchasing the bird organization. And I walked out because this person believes that unless it's illegal, it should be protected free speech, that that's what he said on stage.
And I immediately said that means you could threaten someone with death and that type of free speech. So what does that mean for historically marginalized communities? You're potentially under siege. And we've seen the people who have were threatening to behead people are now sitting on committees in Congress. They've been reinstated. People who have been barred from using certain social media platforms are now back on those platforms.
We are going, in my opinion, in the wrong direction. And I don't know how people are going to respond to this content. We'll see. We will see.
You know, and that kind of our our hopes by highlighting what has happened to us, which I know has happened to people listening to us right now, our goal is to see how we have a collective voice, continue to raise that voice and talk about what is happening to us every single day. And so Dr. Tina and I are going to do a couple of live events as well.
Let us know what you thought about this. Tell us what more ideas or topics or things that you would like us to delve into on this topic. So we are going to keep this conversation going again. Thank you, Dr. Tina, for just your presence, your knowledge, your guidance, and just continuing to invest in doing the right thing and fighting for all of us.
I think together that's what we have to keep doing when we talk about people of color, marginalized communities, we have to continue in this work.
Dr. Bayo thank you so much for having me. And to your listeners, I encourage you all to share your stories in the comments. When you're hearing this, tell us your situations, the experiences that you've had, post links. If you've had situations like this, if you've had positive experiences, share where people like Instagram, Twitter, LinkedIn, have positive Facebook, have positively responded to you, let us know because what we're trying to do is figure out how to make these situations more transparent and clear so that we can have safe communities.
Thank you again, Tobias, for having me. This has been awesome. I'm looking forward to having more conversations.
I am too. Thank you again, Doctor. Tina. Well, this is Dr. Bayo Curry-Winchell, thank you, as always, for joining me on Beyond Clinical Walls.